§1: Larisa Mikaylova

Carmen: This is a REALLY interesting talk. Too bad I haven’t watched the show. I am intrigued by the mention of Black Mirror. So, is the director of this series the same person in charge of the BM episode you mention in your paper?

Larisa: No. He was developing his idea since the 80s. Evidently it is ‘in the air’, as prolongation of one’s self is given form in the digital sphere in more and more forms

Carmen: Oh, ok. Yes, it looks like many “crazy ideas” that were around in the 80s as totally futuristic are now seen as very very near future.

Larisa: Right, commodification of ideas. What is interesting is how the idea is being built into other existing genres.

Esko: Thanks for the great paper! I was wondering if you could comment on how you would see the class politics of such comedic cyberpunk as Upload. I wonder if the genre can get to the “street” point of view of original cyberpunk or might the comedy TV show formula restrict it to a kind of a “middle-class” exploration of cyberpunk themes?

Larisa: Who knows… we’ll see as it is only a first season. But the motivation from within Nathan’s self-identification and his consideration of the future of his former connections gives a unique dialectic perspective, which appeared to include class too. Thus a possibility to develop this side

Lars: There are some aspects of class in the show, the 2GB option for people that don’t have money or that the angel wants her father uploaded but can’t afford it at first…

Lars: I found it interesting that show picked up the “afterlife” option as part of a capitalist scheme with “in-app purchases” etc – where other shows like Altered Carbon or Caprica all pick up on the religious connotation of afterlife

Larisa: Yes. Evidently, you continue whatever you were subject to in life. But more free to question it.

Alexander: Just chiming in to say I loved the talk also! I thought perhaps one could read interesting parallels and differences with the programme The Good Place. Not a Cyber(punk) object, but a show that comically skewers the process of accession as a fundamentally bureaucratic one.

Julia: This is indeed a good parallel, especially in the way “middle-class” problems are being addressed, as Esko noted about the comedic genre in his earlier comment.

Larisa: That is one other possible angle – a conjunction with supernatural in form but moral at core stories playing with the idea of reality, its dimensions and pliability.  Good Place being may be the most recent example. Lucifer. Good Omens and such.

Karina: Hi! Thank you for your presentation! I haven’t watched the series, and I understand it’s ongoing, so I was wondering if the show tackles the subject of spirituality. How do the uploaded characters negotiate their spiritual needs? Thanks!

Larisa: They didn’t come very close to that aspect yet but one can suppose it will be  approached later. The comparison of digital ‘heaven’ constructed to capitalistic principles and ‘actual’ traditionally conceived Christian heaven is touched upon in Nora’s line with her father. And the aspect of possibility to have a bi-lateral relationship ‘beyond the pale’ is the most attractive one Horizen’s approach but from traditional humanistic stance too.

Marcia: In the show, is the digital afterlife considered something that’s implemented badly, but at the root could be authentic and beneficial? And how did this compare to other works of the type and how they see the state of the afterlife?

Larisa: It is a commodity and a craved opportunity to continue communication with your loved ones, but they are shown in a subjugated state – partially due to their relatives idea of them as they were when they were living. Besides Nathan there is a storyline about a boy who died at 10 , and he remains the same for several years, which  his digital self is considering diminishing.  And he is revolting together with Nathan, going to the “forbidden black market level’. So it is a pretty rich idea to develop, to see how it may affect everyone in case it is really imprlemented.

Alexander: I also have not seen the programme, so apologies if this is an obvious question – does it tackle the nature of an afterlife that isn’t similar to the stereotypically judeo-christian one?

Larisa: it does in some extent – Nora-father line. But it is more in the identity-evolution direction, maintaining a possibility to develop, solve the moral dilemmas and search for a inner basis for the continued life.

Adam: I have to say I loved reading this, and I may have to go away and watch Upload very soon on this recommendation. I wondered if you could expand a little on Nathan’s Angel, Nora. I was interested in her as one of the few characters that seems to actively cross this boundary between the living and the digital dead, whether she has a different Avatar/presentation in her angelic form, or if the time constraints of the real world impact her relationship with Nathan?

Larisa: Her avatar is exactly as she is in the reality. Which is also unusual for avatars. It doesn’t seem that she is burdened with some underperformance doubts. After all she is doing a pretty high-tech job. But the range of involvement in the afterlife of Nathan gradually changes the sense of purpose for him. As for her – she definitely starts to think more of the bigger picture too.

Adam: That’s really interesting. I can’t think of many examples off the top of my head where one character has the capability to cross this boundary of death and others are trapped by it. I’m guessing her presentation is more…equal human companion rather than authoritative, ‘spiritual’ angel?

Larisa: at first she presents herself as an ‘angel’ at his service, who can help with all his needs, according to the company regulations, then saves him from destruction to suport her rating/ but gradually, after observing the depressing ‘funeral’, noticing that someone messed with his data she takes more personal interest in him and in the interactions behaves more like a partner, helper with extra abilities which like former coder can vey well understand and rely upon. Furthermore sympathy turns into compassion and a more deep feeling of love as care for emotional well-being and making it possible for a loved one to grow, exist in the fullest way possible . Is it spiritual? – not like in a Bible, but essentially no love can exist without the spiritual element.

Emily: I would appreciate if you could talk more about “overcoming somber overtones of the transhumanistic stage through very recognizable situation” – and whether you feel Upload as comedy as any implication on or significant to  the cultural understanding of transhumanism.

Larisa: The idea I intended to convey was that transhuman in form does not necessarily mean tragically lacking human understanding and compassion. One may also say – some other turns of human existence tracing back to the person’s childhood or adult life which formed him alongside with cultural milieu. That is why in comedic sphere – not slapstick – there may be more possibilities to delve into those circumstances. There is also some parodic ways to include into the storyline without disrupting the structure, as the figure of a clone servant which appears everywhere for everybody – npc character.

Joseph: It seems like these altered reality narratives, whether in virtual spaces or, like Downsizing, micro spaces, are less about ontological futures and more about economic disparities between the haves and the have nots. So, altered reality is really a critique of a virulent form of capitalism. There’s also a sense of isolation here. Wealth boxes the subject in, even if the box is bejewelled, a gilded cage.

Larisa: it is stressed without doubt in many quite ingenuous forms, and worthy to compare with classics.  Still what I liked about the Nathan and Nora characters is that they, as it is so important for us in humanistic sense, are not content with being caged and find ways to use the digital environment to develop. Small charming example with possibility to walk on the water – when Nora does and Nathan splashed under.

Joseph: There’s a sense from these narratives that the two possibilities we’re faced with is hoarding wealth and boxing ourselves in to some protected environment, whether virtual or otherwise (rings true with surviving the pandemic) or experiencing an essential life that is also an expendable life. The poor don’t have recourse to stay in a virtual environment. They go out to a diseased, unprotected world. They don’t get to save their progress.

Larisa: I may agree with you, but it is not the idea the show seems to emphasize more. Thus it used a comdic form to look for the way out of this predicament. and to urge us out of it.

Joseph: walking on water as transcending one’s reality, splashing under as not really believing the world you find yourself in. Jesus walked on water to demonstrate his mastery of this dimension and by extension, his mastery of dimensions beyond. Peter falls in the water, demonstrating that he didn’t really grasp the Kingdom of which Jesus spoke.

Larisa: The Biblical allusion is inescapable but here it is flirtatious – he believes Nora at that moment fully, but he definitely hasn’t been given by her a digital permission to do that. A don’t see any mysticism here, just coyness, which is expressed in a neat way.

Adam: Thinking of boxing yourselves in, you compared this to “San Junipero” in Black Mirror, and I wondered if you’d also considered it in line with “White Christmas,” and how it maybe deals with the authenticity of Nathan? Or does it take that for granted, in a sense, to change the focus of the show away from that particular question

Larisa: If I remember it correctly, “White Christmas” is mainly about true versus constructed, and the motives behind this construction. Nathan has been hiding behind some constructed memory of his true (?) betrayal of his partner to get more profit. But remains a question at this point and one of the sources of his remorse. So this question of authenticity is somewhat approached, but the most memorable scents all deal with true/pretended feelings

Adam: Out of follow up curiosity then. When you say ‘hiding behind’ a constructed memory, does this suggest an idea of using the digital to construct a facade or a mask to his own advantage? Because often I think digitally stored memories are shown to be a fallibility and this interestingly suggests a tool/strength for them. I hope I’m not jumping to any assumptions here. I just don’t know the program and I’m curious.

Larisa: There is a suggestion that there is someone actively messing with his memories, we do not know that yet, and Nora is trying to figure it out. An added element of mystery genre here. So we morally question his former behavior. but he is questioning it too. which makes him more alive.

Felicitas: If it is still possible to ask questions, I would like to know more about the presentation of bodies in the digital afterlife. You already mentioned that Nora looks the same in “meat space” and cyber space. How is that handled with the dead? Most of them would have, at the time of their death, some form of visual markers on their bodies – injuries, disabilities, old age, etc. Are those markers  transferred to the cyber space? Or only in some extent? If not, are the avatars then “sanitized” or “normalized” versions of the real life person’s body?

Larisa: Thank you for your question. The bodily image, identical to the moment of death seems to be used universally  with the characters minus  superficial injuries. There are several examples  to illustrate this. First, it logically can be connected to the initial bulk of uploaded information taken from the diseased practically the second before death. For a price some adjustments can be made, but there was no such instance shown, so there is not much for body disability discourse here. But this may lead to stasis which happens with a boy Nathan meets who stays 10 years old in his appearance though  wants to look more his age+ and to behave accordingly. But his parents who come to visit him want their little boy to remain little, so they do not adjust his appearance.  Second example a super rich guy who prefers to stay in his look because he is accustomed to it and has no intention to change it.  There is some black market activity for augmentations shown , so there definitely can be more space devoted to this sphere in the future/

Felicitas: Thank you for your answer. Does that then mean that there is a huge amount of old-looking avatars present? As far as I am aware, that would be new for cyber space  representations as well as afterlife representations.

Larisa: I wouldn’t call it a huge number but there definitely are some.

Felicitas: Interesting. Thank you!

Larisa: The show definitely has a fresh way to show and discuss a number of things

Larisa: Thank everyone for their stimulating questions. So far we touched upon the anticapitalist take of the show, constructed vs authentic memories, afterlife allusions and concepts, moral ambiguities and the role of comedy in possible lessening fears of transhumanism. To name a few.